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Ive been going to Alexander Technique lessons for a while now for back pain & RSI and its been excellent, really improved things. One thing Ive noticed though (which I cant really talk to my teacher about due to the 'taboo' nature) is the fact that sex causes a real negative tightening effect (sagging) on my muscles which can last for several days after.
Does anyone else out there doing the technique feel the same?
I cant believe I am the only person who can feel this!
It has come to the point now that if I have had an AT lesson and had no sex then Im 'up and free', but if I have had sex then Im definitely not, until I have another lesson.
I know any AT teachers would say stop end-gaining during sex. Easy said than done. It seems when it comes to 'fight or flight' then Im in fight mode during sex. Over time things have got better and I feel things will continue to improve. I have read about tantric sex and have sort of felt my body going that direction anyway but not sure if its safe - (I have read about tantric dry orgasms etc.)
Of course I have had this problem long before learning AT but it is Alexander which is making me more aware of it.
Any teacher's /students views would be much appreciated! -
Matty,
I would love to comment at length on your post as I´ve much to say about sex and the Technique but I have very limited internet access at the moment and won´t be able to post for a month or more.
Hopefully, if you look again later in the new year I will have posted something.
This shouldn´t be a taboo subject but unfortunately it seems it is. The only book I´m aware of that looks at sex and the Technique directly is Wilfred Barlow´s, but his insights are limited.
Bye for now,
Nicholas -
The quicker, the better
thanks -
Matty,
I've just noticed your post during one of the brief moments I'm able to be online at the moment (I'm still travelling). I will respond, eventually, but I'm afraid you'll have to be patient.
In the meantime, could you elaborate on what you mean by a "negative tightening effect (sagging)"'? I should have thought sagging would equate to flacidity or looseness rather than tightening and I'm curious as to what exactly you mean.
By the way, you might find this site of interest: it emphasises the means rather than the end in the bedroom; and if, as you imply, your problem lasts for several days after having sex, there might be a link between what Marnia Robertson calls the hangover from orgasm and what you're experiencing.
www.reuniting.info
Nicholas -
Yes, sorry, just checked the dictionary and 'sagging' is not the right word.
I was trying to explain the 'pull down' effect from my stomach.
The tightness effects my overall body in general but mainly on my upper back, stomach, neck and a benz-like pressure in my head. It normally kicks in the most 48 hrs after orgasm and continues sometimes 3-5 more days.
Yes, I can relate to the 'hangover from orgasm' from the article, but i think my problem is more 'neuro-muscular' than the chemicals produced through the orgasm. I cant figure out if im 'over-protecting' my chest or my balls. I actually feel some tightness the instant Im aroused, it is only the orgasm itself that hits me for six.
Slowly it is getting better but its depressing as im shying away from relationships etc. -
Hello Matty,
Firstly, I must emphasise I haven’t experienced what you’re describing. I'm not a sex therapist and maybe you should consider seeing one. However, I have given some thought to the way the Technique relates to sexual activity, and I think it’s a good subject to have a dialogue about. So, please accept my imput in the spirit it's given, not as advice so much as the sharing of ideas.
I suspect your problem may be solved by ‘paying attention differently’, although I don’t mean this only in an Alexandrian sense. I know, if we apply the Technique to our lives – pay attention to the means, etc – things do change, eventually; but sometimes we need to address matters more directly, if we don’t have a decade to spare.
The answer to how something might be approached differently in order to give a different outcome always involves the nature and quality of our attention. This is intimately linked to end gaining. As you said, with sex this is easier said than done; but it is possible.
In most fields of activity that are causing problems, practice usually involves taking away the ‘real time’ structure. For example, with sport, we take away all notion of competition. With, say, public speaking, we try it out without an audience. In other words, the ‘end’ is done away with, in the belief that that will help the development of the means.
I think the principle of temporarily removing the ultimate purpose from an activity does allow for a form of participation that is conducive to new, hopefully better outcomes. On the assumption your ‘tightness’ is linked to both the anticipation and experience of orgasm, I would suggest being open to experimentation. Perhaps decide in advance that next time you have sex you will not only stop short of climaxing but that everything you do – from the first kiss – you’ll do in slow motion. At least half speed, preferably more. So far as you can, try to do what you usually do, for as long as you usually do it (in total) but do it half as fast and don’t reach the end.
I’m suggesting avoiding orgasm not because of any chemicals that might be being released so much as the effect not having an ‘end’ in mind has on the mental and physical processes. I would also recommend, for obvious reasons, stopping ‘well short’ rather than at the last moment.
I hope that’s not too difficult to contemplate: to avoid climaxing and to proceed at half speed or less; but not to try and do anything else differently – although, obviously, it will be completely different.
I’ve applied much this same approach – slowing things down and avoiding the end – to a few things in life, and not only have I found it useful in itself, it definitely promotes a greater use of Alexandrian awareness by stopping any grabbing for the finish line and forcing a greater appreciation of the means.
Nicholas -
- CommentAuthorbridgetann
- CommentTimeFeb 3rd 2008
I wonder if any of my experiences are of help to this discussion, because as a teacher I find that mentioning sex in the context of performance anxiety (Cosmopolitan--"can you have multiple orgasms?" and "Did you come?" etc.) is one of the best ways for people to understand end-gaining. Nicholas' suggestions above are excellent. Perhaps adding the old-fashioned clearly repeated Alexander orders to yourself would be one other possibility. It certainly helped for me, a kind of lie-back-and-think-of-my-orders idea. Of course as a woman that is different since it is easier for us to fake it.
I began to study Alexander with Dr. Barlow and then moved to his trainee, Sue Laurie, about 29 years ago, when I had no understanding of orgasm. I wasn't upset since I didn't know there was anything to miss. I had had a very active sex life, cut short for a while by a very dodgy coil which caused an ectopic pregnancy and near death. Certainly the death of a very passionate love affair. I began Alexander because an excellent McTimmoney chiropractor who had sorted out a twisted vertabrae said, "If you don't want to keep coming back to me go and study the Alexander Technique." So I did and it helped to overcome the near breakdown after that ectopic. the sexual learning was totally indirect and I never remember even talking to my teacher about it. I just started to notice that the closer I came to orgasm the more upset I became--ie. the startle pattern set in. If I could catch it and say, Stop, to myself, breath and literally keep repeating my orders/directions to get my mind off my performance, and harsh self judgment, I could increasingly reach orgasm.
That had a profound effect on my fertility, since I had only one tube left and doctors had predicted I would not have children. By increasing the orgasm using Alexander I increased my fertility and with a combination of acupuncture and a good gyne I suddenly conceived. then the analogy with sex and childbirth really came into its own--learning to use the Alexander "whispered ah" during sex became a godsend during childbirth. Dr. Barlow gave me my first childbirth lesson and said, "You need to learn to breath into your back, like a fish with gills." I went on to have three children and used the AT every time.
I do orgasm counselling with some selected pupils. That is never the reason they start. It just arises sometimes, especially if I can make a joke about orgasm being the ultimate end gain.
It's a little late to go on, I am happy to see that this subject is being discussed.
Warm greetings, Anita -
Thanks for both of those very useful comments.
Initally, when Nicholas said he had not come across this problem before I was abit surprised and disappointed. I had always assumed most men would noticed this feeling whilst learning the technique. Of course, this is probably part of the problem with any issue of someones health - it causes a reason not to address the issue.
Since reading that I made a conscious decision to go back again and address the real reason why this is happening. After only about 3 months of learning the technique I noticed I was 'over protecting' my testicles in my head, so to speak. I would flinch with any thought of them and have always been uneasy when girls touch them if you pardon the expression!
I am certain all this is because when I was 8 years old I had to have an operation to have my left testicle lowered. It caused alot of pain at the time and to some extent was little embarassing (despite only family/doctors knowing). Although the pain went away I dont think the 'fear of pain' went away. I have always seen that area as very delicate. The only pain I would feel now is if I was to prod around on the connections on my left testicle, I could feel a small zap of pain. What I have noticed if I do manage to stay relaxed that zap wont be there, only as I flinch could there be any negative feeling.
Over time this problem has tightened the left side of my torso - AND of course the fact that I was born with a problem meant there must have been some 'lop' side things happening in the first place.
For whatever reason this (probably due to the chemical and physical movements) the fear of pain has been linked up to arousal/orgasm. I suppose if at the point of orgasm I am flinching, all those contractions send my body on a major imbalance.
When Anita spoke of feeling upset at the point of orgasm, for me it is the feeling of 'fear'.
When I said 'go back again' and address the issue I was refering to a couple of occasions when I have decided to try and let go of these fears by thinking about relaxing 'through' these thoughts. Eg in semi suppine imaging a pair of balls hanging free and let go of my muscles. Before I gave up thinking I simply cant do it. It would make me sweat, wince and tighten and make me return to my normal routine in semi suppine. Now however after 2 weeks of experimenting in semi suppine with different thoughts relating to the operation/pain/sex I am making vastly better progress letting go. Even in the last couple of days I have been gobsmacked of how much letting go I have got through.
Thankfully now, I am certain in a short of time I can beat this problem once and for all, and stay 'free and up'! -
Matty,
You've uncovered a lot, I think.
Unraveling stuff like this can take time but I'm sure it'll be rewarding.
Nicholas -
Looking back this thread, im pleased to say these problems are behind me.
Recently Ive discovered the work of the brilliant physician and psychoanalyst Wilheim Reich who was a protege of Sigmund Freud.
He agreed with Freud that sexual development was the origin of ill health and mental illness.
They both believed that most psychological states were dictated by unconscious processes, that infant sexuality develops early but can be repressed, and that this has important consequences for their health. As sexual repression was the cause of the neuroses, the best cure would be to have an active, guilt-free sex life.
Reich had a theory called ‘body armouring’. He argued that unreleased psychosexual energy could produce actual physical blocks within muscles and organs, and that these act as a ‘body armor’ preventing the release of the energy. Although most didnt know it, muscles remain rigid and tense with this inhibited libido. These ideas developed into a general theory of the importance of a healthy sex life to overall well-being, a theory compatible with Freud's views.
His idea was that the orgasm was not simply a device to aid recreation, but was the body's emotional energy regulator. The healthy the orgasm, the more energy was released, meaning that less was available to create neurotic states. Reich called the ability to release sufficient energy during orgasm ‘orgastic potency’, something that very few individuals could achieve, he argued, because of society's sexual oppression, upbringing or trauma. A man or woman without orgastic potency was in a constant state of tension, developing a body armor to keep it in. The outer rigidity and inner anxiety is the state of neurosis, leading to hate, sadism, greed, and at a political level, fascism and antisemitism.
This dissolution of the ‘body armour’ also brought back the repressed memory of the childhood situation that had caused the repression, he wrote. If the session worked as intended, he wrote that he could see waves of pleasure move through their bodies, a series of spontaneous, involuntary movements.
Reich called these the ‘orgasm reflex’. The two goals of Reichian therapy became the attainment of this orgasm reflex during therapy, and orgastic potency during intercourse. Reich called the flow of energy that he said he observed in his patients' bodies ‘bio-electricity’. He went on to scientifically prove the existence of this, what he called Orgone energy, ('chi') in experiments (with help from Einstein).
I agree completely with all of this. The key to any good health (and any therapy for good health) is making sure there’s no over-tension in the orgasm. When I used to have a bad back, if I went for alexander technique lesson within a day or two after an orgasm she would say ‘oh, you’re quite tight today’. I often used to feel crappy, achy, depressed for a day or two after an orgasm until I figured it all out! I realised after a lot of alexander technique that it was to do with fear of pain over this childhood operation (as described in thread), something I had basically forgotten about/blocked out. My muscles were rigid and tense and all thoses contractions during an orgasm when my muscles were tight sent my body off in badly ‘skew-riff’ manner, which does affect long-term posture and muscle strength.
As I say, thankfully, im over all that now.
But I would have figured it out quicker if it was in the literature.
I've read somewhere that Alexander Technique is a Neo-Reichian therapy (as well many others like Rolfing, Feldenekreis and Body-psychotherapy etc.)
What I don’t understand, unless Im wrong, is why in the Alexander Technique they don’t make a bigger thing of this in its literature and teaching, I guess maybe FM was worried about talking about sex as it wasnt the done thing in those days- Reich was eventually put in prison! Surely in this day and age no-ones bothered (offended) about reading about this important health subject (?) esp. if will improve their health... so someone should write about it/clarify in more depth (?)
Does Alexander Technique ever consider the energy they are working with is actually sexual energy?
this 'arnie sounding' guy talks about it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqgJ6FmZK7o
At 6.15 on this video they talk about 'inhibition' during the orgasm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wD8jW5Uqdk&feature=PlayList&p=CE337D536AEFF8B0&index=0&playnext=1
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I'm glad you've sorted out your problem. I think what you describe is something that Alexander work could help with but not something it would address directly, which is probably why it doesn't crop up in the literature. Alexander's writings are fairly general. He does talk about specific 'disorders' - stuttering, mind wandering, etc - and specific activities - golf, acting, etc - but only as examples of how the particular is affected by the general. It could well be, as you suggest, that he avoided the subject of sex because it wasn't considered appropriate, in his era. However, with Alexander work, no matter what the subject, the 'solution' is not to know the cause of a problem, so much as to recognise how we react to it, and inhibit that.
The short answer to your question as to whether the Alexander Technique considers the energy they are working with as sexual energy is "probably not"! In fact, I would say very few Alexander teachers would be prepared to acknowledge they work with 'energy' at all, other than the sort that causes muscles to move when consent for this is given. -
In the last few days Ive discovered theres a term for this problem - POIS or P.O.I.S Post Orgasmic Illness Syndrome, which relates to fatigue after orgasm / sex or tiredness after orgasm /sex. I found a forum, link below, which has had around 7000 replies, half million views, all with thousands of men (and women too) describing the exactly same problems I had, many with the '2nd day after orgasm is worse' rule.
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=6576.msg215386
hopefully by writing this on this thread someone doing a google search may stumble on this thread which I will help give them a real solution to the problem instead of going on a wild goose chase looking for the cure-all drug.
cheers
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